41. Hell Revisited

Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

As I write this I realize that I am writing into a culture that rejects consequences.  We all feel, and I do include myself in that, that there should be no repercussions for the decisions I make.  There should be lots for the decisions you make, but not for me.

         Consider that teachers have been fired for giving a zero on an assignment that was not handed in.  Consider that all of us feel that we should be able to text and drive.  Consider that we try to keep eating the same foods while staying healthy.

          We also live in a culture where you don’t tell me what the fuck to do. So the idea that what you do in this life should have consequences is firmly rejected.  The concept that those repercussions can extend beyond death are most unwelcome.

       Yet we have the doctrine of Hell.  And, it is up to each of us to reconcile to that doctrine.

There are few concepts that underlie the doctrine of Hell.  First, even though the concept of Hell is mentioned numerous times, the bible is incredibly vague about it.  I have yet to have someone use scripture to explain to me what they believe without there being a long interpretation added. Second, the doctrine of Hell reflects what we believe about God.  As well, the doctrine of Hell reflects on the person themselves.

          Spoiler Alert:  Personally, as I read the Bible, and reflect upon God and my experience, I do not believe Hell, as being the place of eternal torturous punishment, exists.

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Understand that I truly believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.  But understand also that there are significant issues with it.  First, there are a multitude of authors, most scholars believe that there were at least 69 authors.  It was written in four languages.  It was written over a period of 1,500 years.  It was written into several different cultural contexts.  God, and I believe he is in the inspiration, loves allegory, poetry, and myths.  Several components of it we know could not and did not happen.  To take verses out of context, and decide that they hold more significance than the whole of the text is questionable at best.

          When I read the Bible, I see reference after reference of the Love, Mercy and Grace of God.  The doctrine of God eternally torturing people for an eternity for essentially making a bad choice, is totally incongruous with the rest of scripture.  One should also know that not all references to Hell, are actual references to a place of eternal torment. 

And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

The doctrine of hell demands a belief about God.  I do not believe that God is a god of punishment.  I just don’t.  I believe that it is us, humanity, that demands punishment.  Truly, of what I have read of God, he desires for us to be reunified. 

          Christ’s death on the cross was the ultimate display of that desire, and I cannot see him using that sacrifice as justification to condemn anyone to an eternity of being punished. 

          So, if you are to believe in the doctrine of Hell, you have to accept with that a god who would be willing to actively punish people forever. 

          To put this into perspective, let’s take Hitler arguably the most terrible person that ever lived.  He is directly responsible for the murder of about 11 million people.  Let’s say we sentence him to one thousand years for every person that he murdered.  At the end of that time, he would have roasted for about 11 billion years.  Personally, I would not welcome an eternity spent with a god, being or otherwise that would conceive of such a punishment.

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

I believe in that there will come a day that I will stand in the presence of God.  Not that I don’t now, but on that day I will be fully aware of his love for me, and of what has happened to me, and of what I have become, and what I have done.  We are told repeatedly that we will be judged.  I think to stand in the presence of God, and fully experience that love, will truly be a humbling event; even painful. The experience, though painful, is redemptive in nature. 

There is a story about Hell, that I think comes from Sufism.  The afterlife is presented as a huge banquet where there is a wide array of food presented.  The catch is that you cannot feed yourself.  Those who find this place as Heaven remark the food is wonderful, and the people spend time feeding each other.  Those who find this place as Hell complain that they went hungry because with all this food they were not allowed to eat.

40. Hell - Part One

2 Timothy 2:23 - 26 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Oh what tempest Rob Bell with “Love Wins” has set off.  I am getting together with some buddies on Wednesday to watch “Hell Bound.”  This is the documentary by local film maker Kevin Miller, which investigates the doctrines of hell.  Currently it is on Netflix if anyone is interested in watching.  He does a rather good job of exploring the differing arguments.

            A while ago, I had become embroiled in a discussion regarding the doctrine of hell.  Considering the topic em-BROILED is an appropriate term.  It matters not, really, which side each is on, and the details of the disagreement.  What matters is that there is a disagreement.

              And actually, to be fair, the conversation has been about salvation being offered after the person has died.  I am not going to tip my hand on how I sit on the issue; it matters not.  The two sides are when; you die that’s it versus there is a provision of grace after death.

It is a dialogue that I feel very passionate about, and have researched a fair amount in respect to the two sides – the universalists and exclusivists (not sure if that is the right term).  I find that when these perspectives are expressed in their extremes the following happens:

1. Both sides take bible verses that have nothing to do with the topic and correlate that into a position of supporting their doctrine. 

Thus, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.” is offered as a verse proving that hell exists and that we have only this life to avoid it.

Meanwhile Job 23:13 "He is in one mind, and who can turn him" is offered up as proof that all men will be saved.

2. I believe that both beliefs in extreme diminish the power of the cross.  

The belief that salvation can be won after death can come close to making Christ’s sacrifice pointless.  Those who hold that once you stop breathing that is it, border on limiting the significance of compassion  that was displayed on the cross.

3. Both sides expressed in their extremes, show a great misunderstanding of God.

The one side, if you do not confess in this life you go to hell, greatly misunderstands the compassion of God.  The example being, a Muslim woman raised in an Islamic country is never afforded the privilege of receiving the gospel.  When she dies would the same God that felt such compassion for us that he came to die for us send her to hell?  The doctrine of confess before you die, in its extreme, does not allow for her salvation; and I believe gravely misunderstands the mercy of God.

The other side, every one eventually gives up and comes to grace, greatly misunderstands the capacity of choice God has given us.  An acquaintance of mine has repeatedly rejected Christ.  He has done this because he does not want to admit he is wrong!! (His words)  The doctrine of it doesn’t matter what you do in this life you will be in anyway, in its extreme, does not allow for his choice to be honoured.

The debate itself has been healthy, it has stirred passion in me.  It has brought me back to the bible.  I have been reconvicted regarding my beliefs.  Yet.  I worry about the ramifications of this “foolish and stupid argument.”  What is the stress on my prayer group?  Do they understand that the glory of God is so expansive that there cannot be just one perspective?  And both of us need to realize a sense of urgency in proclaiming the gospel, both us need to realize that we will never be able to fathom the glory or the compassion of God.

As for the resolution about the debate about hell?

“My wife loves to tell an apocryphal story about heaven.  In Peggy’s story, Peter is the keeper of the gates of heaven and keeps careful account of those who enter.  The apostle Paul is the census taker of heaven, responsible for knowing how many people are there.

          Peter and Paul are troubled because every time Paul checks the census against Peter’s records he finds that there are more people in heaven than Peter is letting in through the gate.  Neither one of them can figure out why this discrepancy exists.

          Then one day, Paul comes running to the gates declaring, “It’s not our fault! I know why there are more people in heaven than you are letting in through the gates! It’s Jesus! He keeps sneaking people in over the wall!”

- from Stories that feed your soul by Tony Campolo

As for my position on the matter?  I think the bible is intentionally vague on it, which would be indicative of the grandeur of God’s grace and our limited understanding of it.  And I will take a clearer stand next post.

39. Random Thoughts

ugliness of soul

threatens me not

from without

but from within

consuming

beauty

The invitation of hatred and anger is to participate in hatred and anger.  The bully can only invite us to hate the bully in return. 

To whine bitch and complain is so enticing.  The stating of my litany of what is wrong so appealing.  To become enraged at injustices in life is intoxicating.  I grow tired of the noise of my own mouth. 

Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

I believe that the original sin, that which condemns me, is the act of judging.  Before the fall we were without shame.  When we learned to judge, the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, we lived in shame.

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

It matters not what the point of judgment is – I am the least qualified to decide what is sinful and deserving of judgment – by that action I condemn myself.  A play on words?  To condemn others for the wrongs they have done only condemns myself to the madness of judging – once I start I cannot stop.

"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

We live in a world that has as its default response to life being judgment and anger.  We have established principalities and powers that scrutinize for fault and blame.  Our addiction to judgement and punishment goes unchecked.  If my brother sins against me I am to shout my condemnation from the rooftops.

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Jesus taught us that in our actions to each other that we were doing it to him.  We are referred to as the body of Christ – to judge you is to judge myself, to care for you is an act of self nurturing, to love you is to love myself.

I have to little to offer in the way of advice.  I am not good servant, nor a good steward.  As Jesus prays I dream.  But I do know this…

But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

I pray my friend that you find it – my hope rests with that.

grace cross revealed

compassion – co passion

saved I am

38. Called to Hang With Jas

Before I get into the blog I want to comment on something – I was disturbed by an article in the Huffington Post a few weeks ago.  The head line read -

“Prayer Alone Heals Mental Illness, Say One Third Of Americans In LifeWay Research Poll”

If you are one of those one in three people please do me a favour.  The next time you have an abscess tooth do not seek treatment, rather pray for the delivery from that pain and misery.  Yes, mental illness may just be in your head, but so are your teeth and if prayer works for one it will work for another.

Now on to the blog -

Proverbs 3:5 – 6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

An acquaintance of mine, I think at some point he will be closer to friend, is an amazing man.  I met him over a year ago when a friend of mine said, “Hey Drew, would you come with me and check out this guy, he is either really crazy or God is really moving things with him.”

          As it turns out, both were true. 

        Jas has a simple vision, feed poor people good food.  God does the rest.  Jas acquired a farm for a dollar a year.  And had a tractor given to him, and other implements.  He asked to borrow a fork lift and was told to keep it.  Other people have given him land, gas, seed, and other stuff.  He reminds me of another lunatic for the Lord that created a theatre group.

          Jas is a devoted Christian, you would not know it unless you got to talk to him, and only after a while.  But he is passionate and you can tell that from a distance. He is passionate about the food we eat, he is passionate about making sure no one goes hungry. 

          I go ever so often to the farm he runs.  By every so often, I think maybe eight times in two seasons.  Mostly I go to take another friend of mine who finds comfort in an evening of doing something.  I have gone on my own, but mostly it is with my other friend.

          Jas makes a big deal out of my being there.  He is a humble man, and I am not sure if he realizes the modesty of my commitment to what he is up to.  But it is one of those projects that when we all take a turn, we do wonders with one or two evenings a month.  But he does tell me that he appreciates my efforts.

          I was there the other night, helping to wash carrots. Jas and I got to talking.  After pondering the female and male anatomical likeness of some of the carrots we got into more serious stuff,  He had been providing the carrots to a local charity.  Clean organic carrots, and truly organic, which a produce retailer has approached him about wanting to buy the crop.  The carrots were grown to be given away.  So, he turned down the offer.  At which point the charity, for reasons I don’t think God even gets, said they did not want his carrots. Something about the shape and size were not consistent..

          It was a relief that Jas has been subjected to something more stupid than I.  I know that is not very nice of me, but in that week of stupidity, it was somehow comforting to know that I had been trumped.  But it was what happened next that was truly uplifting. 

          Jas began to talk of what was next, and the carrots could be added to hampers and sold so that other food could be bought and then distributed through various churches.  His mission was to feed poor people good food.  It mattered not what organized bureaucratic nonsense stood in his way, he was feeding poor people good food.

          As we talked, he talked of all that had been done for him on the farm.  People felt compelled from a sense of compassion to help.  He was trying to get an atheist group from Seattle to come up and help, which for numerous reasons delighted me.  He had appealed on TV for assistance when the crops were dying in the fields from not being picked.  Close to 500 people showed up.

          He is an amazing man, or rather, he has moved enough out of the way so that God is able to do amazing things with him.

We are called to be each other Jas’s.  But we are also called to hang with our version of Jas. I have a couple of people who do that for me.  Men, for reasons that I will explain at another post, who inspire me and who just being with bring a deeper peace to my being.

          One of first my teachers said, and I paraphrase, “When you and I can lose the bullshit and just be with each other, person to person, God is in that space.”

          I have had moments of being with God.  They always seem to be with other people.  We are called to allow our spirit and soul to be rejuvenated.  Jas does that for me.  Other people, well it is more akin to intellectual boxing, fun but not as soothing.  Jas on the other hand - is what need every so often.